Ministers snub calls for new wind turbine rules

“danno89

Thank you for your response. Which consists of asserting your ignorance and insults - not an unusual response from wind power zealots, I find.

Why not take the time to find out what 'idiots' like Environmental Protection UK (formerly NSCA), the environmental protection charity supported by pollution control professionals, the UK Noise Association and the Noise Bulletin (the professional journal of acousticians) have to say on the subject of wind farm noise.

The latter summed up the view of most experts outside the wind industry: "Only when the public can trust the Government and wind farm developers on noise issues will there be a chance that the public will accept them without a fight " (Editorial, Noise Bulletin, Issue 15, Aug/Sept. 2007).

Might also be worth reading what 'idiots' like National Grid, Ofgem, the Royal Academy of Engineering, Professor Sir David King (Govt. Chief Scientific Advisor, 2000-2007), Sir Martin Holdgate, ex-chairman of the Renewable Energy Advisory Group, grid operators worldwide and even Professor David MacKay (DECC scientific advisor and author of 'Sustainable energy without the hot air') are saying about wind power generation before sounding off on a subject that you admit to knowing nothing about.

You might then understand why, in the real world, wind turbines have almost no effect on conventional thermal power capacity or CO2 emissions - National Grid tell us that even if we build 23GW of onshore wind (DECC's high end forecast) we will STILL need 36GW of NEW gas capacity and 30.5GW of NEW nuclear.

As Dr James Lovelock, environmentalist and scientist, and originator of the Gaia concept says:
"Europe's massive use of wind as a supplement to base load electricity will probably be remembered as one of the great follies of the 21st century." (The Vanishing Face of Gaia — A Final Warning).”

“Aeolus, firstly as a chartered engineer I'm pretty sure I'm ok with reading academic papers. You can always find hundreds of academic papers for anything if you look hard enough and I dare say (without spending any my time researching references as I have a job to do) that there will be more supporting evidence for how silent wind turbines actually are these days.

Before I spend anymore time on here I'd just like to say that I'd like to bet it would be idiots like you that would be the 1st to complain when you have to ration your electricity usage as the finite fossil fuels are running low and cost an absolute fortune.”

“Danno89.

Yes, people are claiming they are noisy - not even the wind industry claims that they are not; that is why we have noise modelling, that is why some wind farms end up being shut down by environmental health officers and wind farm operators paid the Davis family's claims to stop the public hearing about the noise figures recorded by Environmental Health Officers at Deeping St Nicholas, 930m from the turbines.

You obviously havent heard about 'amplitude modulation' and cumulative low frequency noise, the wind industry's dirty little secret.

There is even the amusing example of Wind Prospect, the company which developed the Deeping St Nicholas turbines, objecting to a proposed tourist development next to their consented wind farm at green Rigg, in Northumberland, because:

" ... this is a proposed holiday centre, where patrons would reasonably expect to sit outside to enjoy the relative peace and quiet of the countryside. [...] Noise from the permitted wind energy development will be very likely to provoke complaints, and this will place both the Environmental Health Department and the wind farm operator in an impossible position: a complaint about noise could be found to be justified, and construed as a noise nuisance, even though the wind farm was operating lawfully within the constraints of its planning conditions." (http://tinyurl.com/75podso )

There is now a growing body of peer reviewed, academic research which clearly explains why there are problems with wind turbine noise nuisance worldwide. See, for example, 'Low-frequency noise from large wind turbines', J. Acoust. Soc. Am. Volume 129, Issue 6, pp. 3727-3744 (2011); Henrik Møller and Christian Sejer Pedersen, Section of Acoustics, Aalborg University. Commissioned by the Danish Government.

If reading academic papers is difficult for you, try this video, where the problem with wind turbine noise is very clearly explained by an industry acoustician:
http://tinyurl.com/77gar5m

Or you might just read some of the visitors' comments on the Camping and Caravanning Club website page for Kessingland where yet another turbine array is annoying people:
http://tinyurl.com/7p3otdn”

“Did I read that right? JUST 750m..... Nearly half a mile??? Average rural night time background noise is 20-40dB(A). Modern day wind turbine noise at 750m is less than 20dB(A).

Are people still actually claiming wind turbines are noisy? I thought that ship had sailed ages ago?”

“Oops I went on a bit didn't I but topics like this get me annoyed with bureaucrats, politicians, do-gooders etc picking up on what they think is a good idea and we all know it isn't. Things should have been left they way it was.”

“Aeolus...did I not say I didn't like them apart from if they were saving me money on energy. I was referring to them being close as in visual and not the noise they can create. I heard about the Davis family on Look North or Look Lincolnshire as it should be called but they said they couldn't hear any noise. I know they do because Janice Street Porter remarked on it on Question Time as well as others. I suppose the noise is different depending on how much wind there is and which way the wind is blowing. I live just on the edge of a village so just about in the country but I am also close to Cranswick Country Foods and have the pleasure of listening to their chiller or air handling unit which kicks on and off 24 hours of the day so appreciate how noise is disturbing. See my other comment about Wind Turbines to see if I like them or not. No I don't. Just a shame they can't make them look pretty like the windmills of old.

Seeing as you got me started then wind turbines are a waste of money. They only benefit the people who own the land they are put on. They are not environmentally friendly from a construction point of view and they will take years to pay for themselves and yes they give 'free' energy when installed but at what cost and what about maintenance not forgetting you need wind to power them in the first place. What about all the ones that are out in the North Sea, which is where they should be, that need a maintenance crew to go out to them. A crew of people, a boat, diesel etc etc. technically more impact on the environment. There a a lot of people making lots of money out of renewable energy. But it's not just there is it. Low E glazing on all new properties along with another change in building regs in 2010 and another one due in 2013 has seen our insulation required in our houses go to a ridiculous level. Gas central heating systems are no longer energy efficient due to heat loss and therefore have to be traded off against expensive solar panels. I wish I had bought shares in Pilkingtons and Kingspan years ago because they would be worth a fortune today. I just wonder whether some of the people in government who have pushed all this through actually did buy shares in these types of companies. Not to mention Euro 4 & Euro 5 engines. Don't buy a new diesel car and run it round town or you will be spending upto £2,000.00 on a new DPF in a couple of years time. Garages won't tell you that but see Watchdog programme on diesels and you will see.

We produce just 0.2% of the world's carbon so whatever we do in this country will have no bearing at all. We will not be saving the planet one bit yet it will be costing us £1,000's over the years. Say No to wind farms, say No to Europe, say No to more energy efficiency unless it actually saves us money and if members of the green party want to push their policies then get them to do a life cycle on the cost first.”

“Smartguy1.

There will only be marginal improvements in efficiency. Wind turbine generators have been around since 1895 and have been in widespread commercial use for over 30 years worldwide.

They are limited by the laws of physics. The only way you can majorly increase output is by increasing the height of the turbine (better wind speeds) and the swept area of blades.

Hence turbines have grown from 30-50m (first generation UK turbines) to today's 125m models. The new generation of onshore turbines being rolled out are 145-180m and the latest models are even bigger.

Vestas recenlty launched their new 187m V164 turbine. According to Ditlev Engel, CEO of Vestas, "It's longer than the Swiss Re building, located in London (180m), and the rotating area of its blade (21,124㎡) is three times as large as Wembley Stadium".

Enercon's E-126 onshore turbine, which has already been deployed at several sites in Germany and Belgium (where it is already causing problems with noise), has a height of 198m (649.6 ft). The next generation, if the industry doesn't fold before then, are forecast to be in the 200-250m range.

Gigantic turbines have to be more widely spaced to avoid problems with turbulence, so, though you need fewer of them, they are widely spread and dominate landscapes for even greater distances. And they still generate only very small amounts, intermittently and erratically.”

“smartguy1.

Read what RollTide has said, he makes some very sensible points which should be supported by anybody, pro- or anti-wind, who thinks we need some basic planning protections for communities.

How smart is it to allow wind developers to build as close as 500m to housing? I can name numerous examples of schemes which meet the guidleines that were specially formulated for WF noise (ETSU-R-97) but which, when built, have caused serious problems with noise nuisance, adversely affecting people's health. See the new scheme at Fullabrook, for one: http://tinyurl.com/8yaupso

You might not know that the Davis family who were driven from their home in Lincolnshire, near the Deeping St Nicholas turbine array, received a very large settlement to their High Court action last November. Their home is 930m from the turbines. The wind company settled a day before the noise evidence was due to be heard!

Other countries enforce sensible separation distances to protect people. Not here. It appears that the profits of wind speculators - mostly from subsidies paid by consumers - are more important to politicians than people's health and wellbeing.”

“This thread is about how close should turbines be to someone's property and to be honest they don't bother me so long as they are not in my back garden or in the field at the back of my garden, unless it means cheaper energy for me. In our current climate it seems the only people who benefit from having these on their property are the farmers who own the fields they are built in so I would be opposed to having one near my property. 750 metres is still quite away away though. Roughly half a mile. Just for the record wind farms are not the future. If they built them on every square mile of our country they would still only supply 25% of our current energy supplies therefore they need to make them more efficient. It's old technology and it worked until something more efficient came along. The windmills of old look pretty though and would look nice in the view to my back garden unlike the giant propellors which may turn up one day.

Technology will improve though. They may get more efficient. Who would have thought we could chat to anyone in the world by video calling or skype or having our whole music collection on a small pice of plastic or we would be hanging tv's on the wall like pictures. The technology wasn't available then to do that but who knows what we will have in the future. A small 100% safe power cell the size of a car battery powing your car maybe.”

“PJMtigerman is spot on, they'e not efficient or cost effective.

Norfolkboy15 also makes a good point about us importing fuel, the irony of course is that we are sat on millions of tonnes of coal, which we actually import as opposed to mining it!

The fact is that regardless of green energy advances, they will use every ounce of oil / gas and coal on the planet because it makes money!”