“well i suppose you can ask the 83% of british doctors who dont trust drugs for humans that passed were, safe on animals, poll, safer medicines, any way NICE KNOWING ALL THE COM MENTORS WHO HAD AN INTEREST IN THIS GOING AHEAD OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS, THE GOVERNMENT TURNED IT DOWN SO THE ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS DID MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND GOOD FOR THEM, and me, see you all, my job is done here, bye bye,”

“alanbrookes, Can you quote how many have been saved to give it a fair argument?”

“Drs and Lawyers for Responsible Medicine, 197,000 British and E.U. citizens are maimed and killed as a result of A.dverse D.rug R.eactions. passed safe on animals yet went on to kill humans in clinical trails ,

ü Animal tested drugs kill 18,000 people in the UK every year. BMJ 03 07 04.
cant argue with that”

“CT007 - No, I'm not avoiding answering.

Thalidomide wasn't tested on pregnant animals prior to being administered to pregnant women, no. However, it was initially marketed as a sedative. It had been tested on animals prior to this, but no sedative effects were found.

It was then marketed as a drug to prevent morning sickness, this time without being tested on animals. However, later tests still have not produced similar effects in offspring of those whose mothers were given it, in comparison to humans.

Here's a big list of evidence that shows how sunsequent testing on animals failed to produce similar effects in a variety of lab animals for you:

April 1962, The Lancet published a letter by G F Somers of Distillers, who wrote of tests with thalidomide in animals: "Our first experiments in rats showed resorption sites but no malformations. Now we have succeeded in producing deformities in rabbits remarkably similar to those seen in humans".

Recalling the comment, New Scientist of 23 May 1974 pointed out that "The dose used in rabbits was about 30 times that recommended in man when thalidomide was used as a daytime sedative and night time hypnotic".

In 1964, in Journal of Reproductive Fertility, Mary Hay, Agricultural Research Council Unit of Reproductive Physiology and Biochemistry, University of Cambridge, England, wrote: "teratogenicity of thalidomide, as assessed on the fully-developed foetus or newborn young, varies between different species of animal and also between different strains".

In Drugs as Teratogens (Taylor & Francis. 1976), J L Schardein wrote "In approximately 10 strains of rats, 15 strains of mice, 11 breeds of rabbits, 2 breeds of dogs, 3 strains of hamsters, 8 species of primates and other such varied species as cats, armadillos, guinea- pigs, swine and ferrets in which thalidomide was tested, teratogenic effects have been induced only occasionally".

The species of animals, and strains of animals, used and results of teratogenicity tests in animals were as follows: NB: mg/Kg = mg of thalidomide per Kg body weight of the animal. In humans, deformed babies were born to mothers who had taken a dose as low as 1mg/Kg during pregnancy.

Enough references for you?

In short, you don't get the same symptoms of Thalidomide in non-human animals as you do in humans.

Dogs don't get lung cancer through smoking.

Humans are different to other species. That's why we're humans and other species are not.

Do you see? If it worked, and if you know what to do with an over-populated planet - great. Unfortunately, it doesn't work and you don't know what to do with an over-populated planet.

The only valid method of measuring of a drug's effect on humans is to test it on humans.

To apply your reasoning to you, I note you haven't addressed the issues of either "What are you going to do with an ever expanding population - assuming animal testing works?" and, "What about Beagles never getting lung cancer?"

Nothing's going to change - All of the things you have cited prove nothing. They would have worked anyway. If anything, animal testing has slowed down their availability.”

“Here's 100 year of success and millions of lives saved happy reading :-)

Malaria parasite lifecycle (cattle, birds)
Vaccine for smallpox (cattle)
Vaccine for anthrax (sheep)
Early anaesthetics (cats, rabbits, dogs)
Rabies vaccine (rabbits, dogs)
Typhoid, cholera and plague vaccines (mice, rats)
Treatment for beriberi (chickens)
Polio vaccine (mice, monkeys)
Hip replacement surgery (dogs,
sheep, goats)
Kidney transplants (dogs)
Cardiac pacemakers (dogs)
Medicines for high blood pressure
(rats, mice, dogs)
Replacement heart valves (dogs,
calves, rabbits, guinea pigs, rats)
Chlorpromazine and other psychiatric
medicines (rats, rabbits, monkeys)
Heart transplants (dogs)
Coronary bypass operations (dogs)
German measles vaccine (monkeys)
MMR vaccine (monkeys)
Antidepressants and antipsychotics
(rats, guinea pigs, rabbits)
CT scanning for improved
diagnosis (pigs)
Chemotherapy for leukaemia (mice)
Medicines to treat ulcers (rats, dogs)
Inhaled asthma medication (guinea
pigs, rabbits)
MRI scanning for improved diagnosis
(rabbits, pigs)
Prenatal corticosteroids improving
survival of premature babies
(sheep, rabbits, cattle)
Treatment for river blindness
(rodents, cattle)
Life support systems for premature
babies (monkeys)
Medicines to control transplant
rejection (mice, rabbits, dogs,
monkeys)
Hepatitis B vaccines (monkeys)
Medicines to treat viral diseases
(many species)
Treatment for leprosy (armadillos,
monkeys)
Treatment for rickets (dogs)
Corneal transplants (rabbits)
Local anaesthetics (rabbits, dogs)
Discovery of Vitamin C (guinea pigs)
Blood transfusions (dogs, guinea pigs, rabbits)
Insulin (dogs, rabbits, mice)
Canine distemper vaccine (dogs)
Modern anaesthetics (rats, rabbits,
dogs, cats, monkeys)
Tetanus vaccine (horses,
guinea pigs)
Diphtheria vaccine (guinea pigs,
rabbits, horses, monkeys)
Anticoagulants (rabbits, guinea pigs,
mice, dogs)
Penicillin and streptomycin (mice)
Discovery of rhesus factor (monkeys)
Kidney dialysis (guinea pigs, rabbits, dogs, monkeys)
Whooping cough vaccine (mice, rabbits)
Heart-lung machine for open heart surgery (dogs)
Combined therapy for HIV infection (mice,
monkeys)
Meningitis vaccines (mice)
Better medicines for depression (rats)
Medicines for breast and prostate cancer (mice,
rats, dogs)
Medicines for type 2 diabetes (mice)
New medicines for asthma (guinea pigs, monkeys)
Statins to lower cholesterol (rabbits)
Deep Brain Stimulation for Parkinson's Disease
(monkeys)
Monoclonal antibodies for adult leukaemia,
lymphoma (mice)
Cervical cancer vaccine (rabbits, cattle)
Clotting agent from milk (goats)
Bird flu vaccine (chickens and ferrets)

& to come in the 2010's?

Stem cells for spinal cord, heart
repair (mice, rats)
Oral or inhaled insulin for type 1
diabetes (mice)
Angiogenesis inhibitors for cancer,
blindness (mice)
Gene therapy for muscular dystrophy,
cystic fibrosis, sickle cell disease
(mice)
Alzheimer's vaccine (mice)
Malaria vaccine (mice, monkeys)”

“MiddleRabbit, that would be no to my question then or you avoiding an answer?

Also, quoting the surgeon's general report 1971 & 1977 is not a defined citation; see below for an example of a reputable source happy reading this work saved millions.

http://tinyurl.com/3raxgha”

“MiddleRabbit, That would be no to my question then or you avoiding an answer?

Also, quoting the surgeon's general report 1971 & 1977 is not a defined citation; see below for an example of a reputable source with defined citation happy reading this work saved millions.

http://tinyurl.com/3raxgha”

“Sorry - not cancerous cells, but "early invasive squamous cell carcinoma in the bronchi."”

“Sorry - not cancerous cells, but "early invasive squamous cell carcinoma in the bronchi."”

“If beagles are famous for anything, apart from Snoopy and their dreadful - but entertaining - behaviour, it's for smoking.

Previous smoking experiments had failed to induce cancer in animals - this is up to about 1971 - Surgeon General's report.

Auerbach's "smoking beagle" experiment showed that, using tracheotomies, he had found some cancerous cells in some of the dogs' lungs. He never claimed that any of the dogs actually had cancer, of course. This was reported in the SGs report in 1977. By 1982, the SGs report was referring to Auerbach's experiment only in terms of the lack of replication of his results.

Unreplicated results are a polite way of saying - the first set of results were fiddled.

Beagles don't get lung cancer, no matter how much they smoke. That's the legacy of the 'famous experiment.

Now, bearing that in mind - whatever gets approved after being tested on these beagles next will be the same thing as saying that smoking doesn't cause cancer! "Look it's been tested on beagles, they were fine, what are you on about?". Even the tobacco multinationals don't do that, do they? Animal testing, it doesn't do the job, simple as that.”