“In all fairness, schools have been having 10 weeks holiday for generations. It`s something all parents should think about before they either have kids or go back to work.
As for schools staying open longer, aren`t they supposed to be there to educate not babysit?”

“Children have had ten weeks holiday for as long as I can remember. That was started back in the "good old days" when the norm was for Mother to stay at home, look after the kids and run the home and Father was the breadwinner.

Different way of life now, so a review is long overdue. Whether it will be beneficial remains to be seen. It probably will succeed, but just another nail in the coffin for family life as we once knew it”

“Excellent answer flossy.”

“An interesting answer from Pippa. It would appear that she will be voting for Colin when he eventually decides to run for Parliament (on the Minimum Wage and no expenses.)

She clearly believes that 'Birds' should be tied to the kitchen sink.”

“Apparently Gove wants academies to offer dinner (tea round these parts) if they cater to a lot of working families so the "babysitting" element is definitely being increased. And I am not sure the proposals are being made with the childrens' best interests in mind: although the long holidays are supposed to make things harder for children from less privileged backgrounds, whose "learning experiences" may not be in abundance while not at school.
The idea of my children being in school for 51 weeks a year, or being in school from 8am to 8pm come to that is totally against all my principals - kids should be playing, eating and exploring with family and friends.
However, the current situation is ludicrous for so many families now that surely something has got to give??”

“Having lunch and dinner in school could be very beneficial to many children whose parents work shifts or long hours and particularly to children from impoverished backgrounds. The longer school day will also hopefully allow more time for sport, homework would be done in school time and there will be extra curricular clubs and activities.
This system has always worked well in public schools and I am sure there will be an option for parents to collect their children earlier.
Many grandparents who would normally care for grandchildren are now having to work longer and few families can afford the luxury of only one income so I guess we have to adapt”

“Apollo_Mouse

It appears that YOU believe that 'Birds' should be tied to the kitchen sink
Why do you demean the important role of a housewife/homemaker ?
Why do you look down your nose at mothers who want to stay at home and watch their children in their formative years ? It is the most rewarding "job" in the world”

“if your kids are at school for there breakfast,dinner and tea then you might as well send them to boarding school, you would never see them.
I like sitting and doing my kids homework with them and eating together lets us all talk about our days and stay together as a family. family life is important
I chose to go back to work part-time after i had my kids and although i do have to juggle all my holiday time and use kids clubs ect i would not want to miss the time i have with them.”

“Just to correct Lucy, statutory paid holiday is a MINIMUM of 5.6 weeks a year, however, bank holidays can be included in that.”

“Missfoodlove

"children from impoverished backgrounds"

And how do you define 'impoverished'? Kids walking around in rags without shoes or socks or kids without the latest mobile phone?

Let's hope the schools will be given more money to provide this baby sitting service then.”

“There is no maximum of 5 weeks time off allowed for the 'working parents'? There is a minimum of 5.6 weeks entitlement!”

“They had more time off, particulary in the Summer to help with harvesting, but since the demise of child labour they get long holidays instead. Back in those days the parents wouldn't have had 5 weeks off either.”

“Imagine_ that,
Sadly many children come from an impoverished background due to dreadful parenting, there was a classic case in the news this week of the girl from Hull who went out clubbing whilst leaving her children alone in a hovel.I would say they were impoverished, the money may be there but not every parent spends it on the child's needs.”

“Missfoodlove,
The woman in the news article you are refering to is not impoverished and neither are her children. This is a classic case of inadequate parenting and no amount of money thrown at them would make a difference.
Why should the tax payer and the education system pay for the children of people who can`t be bothered to even get up in a morning to give their kids a breakfast, or, more to the point, an evening meal.”

“Pippa, you posted:

by pippa1951Wednesday, April 04 2012, 10:52PM
"Apollo_Mouse

It appears that YOU believe that 'Birds' should be tied to the kitchen sink
Why do you demean the important role of a housewife/homemaker ?
Why do you look down your nose at mothers who want to stay at home and watch their children in their formative years ? It is the most rewarding "job" in the world"

In your haste to defend Colin, you have missed the point altogether.

Women and Men have and should retain the choice with regard to being a house Husband/Housewife. Some people do not wish to marry, live together or enter into a Civil Partnership. That's their choice and they have the right to support themselves by working if they can.

Colin stated that 'Birds' should not work and stay at home. How you can defend an attitude such as this escapes me. He doesn't even understand the issue yet you still encourage him.”

“Apollo_Mouse

You give the impression that you think that "Birds" who stay at home and raise a family are living a life of drudgery, being "tied to the kitchen sink" Not so.

Of course everyone should have the choice, but I think you have mis-interpreted Wozza's stance on the subject. Whilst, I'm sure his wife worked before their kids came along, he believes a woman's place is in the home looking after their kids. Nothing wrong with that if a bloke is able to support his family. In fact I would go so far as to say it's commendable

I'm surprised at your age, that you are so PC. Oops that's ageist.....sorry”

“LucyLyon,

With reference to the above few posts (you all know who you are)... ...here we go again... ...another thread with a potential for decent debate descending into a petty squabble...

Oh well...”

“Why should children suffer because of poor parenting? Sadly school is a safe haven for many children, I agree teachers are to educate not to babysit etc. We have however built schools with excellent facilities at great expense, these buildings should be for the community and in some communities the families would cope far better if there was provision for before and after school care, meals and activities.
As a tax payer I don't mind if some of my tax goes towards helping children whose parents cannot parent because I am grateful to be so fortunate.”

“Until the 80`s most mothers were quite happy to stay at home until the kids were at least old enough to be trusted not to burn the house down. Maggie Thatcher started the decline (imo) by encouraging people to have it all and have it now..
If people would just realise that children are the most precious things we have and the best gift we can give them is time. What is the point in both parents working to give your kids a big house on a `posh` estate, designer labels and the latest gadgets, if you are never at home to spend any time with them.”

“Missfoodlove

The woman who you refer to left her kids, aged 3, 4 and 7, at 11.30pm to go clubbing.

I hardly see how keeping schools open until 8pm would make the slightest difference to what she did.

Now if the parents had to spend part of the 8am to 8pm at the school with their kids, taking parenting lessons or doing Family Learning activities then fair enough.”

“Apollo

I have never heard of 'birds' being used to only describe women who stay at home after starting a family. It is slang for women in general.

Perhaps wozza can come on here and answer for himself? He isn't usually backward at coming forward.”

“There are some pretty old fashion views on here. Me and my husband both work hard to keep our children in a reasonable house and provided them with warmth and shelter. We have no luxury holidays as we cannot afford them.
Yes, I would love to stay at home with my children (one of whom is at pre-school) but we cannot simply afford it. These clubs are vital not only to ''impoverished'' families but they are also vital for working families to give them the flexibility to be able to work longer and earn an extra income for their families.
What people are forgetting is that these clubs payed by the ''tax payers'' are also used by many working people (and therefore tax payers) and more often then not are paid for by the parents - also tax payers. Not everyone that uses them are from disadvantaged backgrounds. In fact everyone that uses my son's schools clubs are working families who just want earn extra income to provide for their families. Families should not be knocked for trying to earn an income, especially with cuts to Tax Credits, Pay freezes and increased holdhold costs!”

“Imagine_that,
What you suggest is exactly what I mean, parenting, literacy, healthy eating, cookery, financial management are the sort of skills these academies should offer to children and their parents.
I also believe that keeping schools open for longer could help the children whose parents are not able to provide a loving and nurturing environment.
What do you imagine a 3, 4 and 7 year old feel like when they come home from school or nursery to a hovel? These are not children who have the luxury of a hot meal a warm bath and a bedtime story before getting tucked up in clean sheets, these are feral children who live on the margins of society.They need all the help they can get.”

“2803summer: I was not suggesting that after-schoolclubs etc are not required for those families that do have two working parents. In fact, that is exactly the point I am making. Today there can be no doubt that the gap between the number of hours working parents are required to work and the number of hours our children is at school is causing problems for many families, who have to constantly juggle childcare.
What I wonder about, however, is whether the proposal to co-incide school hours with working hours (and beyond if schools are seriously thinking of offering 8am to 8pm) is actually beneficial to children.
Family life, playing outside with friends, even just relaxing at home are an important part of growing up too. Just because some people are always going to judge some childrens' backgrounds as lacking, and, in fact, some childrens' home life is definitely not ideal, does not mean that we should lengthen school hours to make people's lives easier or to try and eradicate differences in lifestyles.
As flossy says, surely our schools are about education not some kind of mass babysitting tool?”

“I have heard of parents sending their kids to school with all sorts of nasty illnesses, anything from `flu to chicken pox and then complaining when the school gets in touch to collect their kids. These are probably the same parents that moan long and loud on the first day of any school holiday.
I can imagine the joy these parents would feel at the prospect of having their offspring out of the way for 12 hours a day 51 weeks a year and I bet they`d still moan at the one week they had them at home.”

“Missfoodlove

"What do you imagine a 3, 4 and 7 year old feel like when they come home from school or nursery to a hovel?"

Well I should imagine that these kids hardly ever went to school/nursery because the mother was found at 9.30am the day after she left them (it was a Tuesday) so was hardly going to take them anywhere that day.

I should imagine that she would never dream of attending a parenting class at a school.

I should imagine that any mother leaving her very young children alone all night to go clubbing needs a lot more help than some literacy and cookery lessons. After all, she had all that at school when she went there herself as a student.”

“I would say the woman in question will be forced to attend parenting classes if she wishes to keep her children.”

“To go back to the original question, I am personally appalled at Gove's suggestion that children should be able to attend school for 51 weeks a year, or from 8am - 8pm. I have two children, live away from both sets of grandparents, have a partner that works full time and have worked part time since both of my children turned 1 - as you can imagine, I have had my fair share of childcare situations to manage. Children should have long holidays that allow them to have a childhood. Compulsory education is crucial but so is informal learning and family time.

I should say that I didn't return to work to buy fancy gadgets, pay for fancy holidays or even to bring in extra income. I returned to work as, like many families today, one income doesn't cover our household outgoings, purely based on when we managed to join the housing ladder.
Although both my children have benefitted massively from attending private nursery and pre-school, given the choice, I would prefer my pre-school child to be at home with either my partner or I as much as possible. I feel that many families have been forced into a situation where they have to access childcare in order to maintain fairly simple lifestyles.

I feel that childcare pressures should be eased by employers and the state, not children themselves! Employers should encourage and seriously consider requests for flexible working from both mothers and fathers. Job share should be a serious option for job applicants, both men and women and there needs to be a cultural shift accepting that people need to go home to their families at the end of a working day.

In terms of the state, for me, the government is currently spouting messages related to traditional family values, but not backing this with policy. Whilst doing this, at the same time they are increasing the tax credit working threshold to 23 hours (from 16) and reducing the amount paid to families, meaning people have no choice but to return to work and put their children in care. I'm not clear what the governments message is - get on your bike, here's childcare for 12 hours a day, 51 weeks a year, but make sure you maintain your traditional family values. I'm not sure what they are saying is the right thing for your family?

Finally, for the record, to state the obvious, men or women can stay at home with their children and many women are the main breadwinner in today's society. I think it's about time we moved on from the chauvinistic / traditionalist view that women should stay at home with children. Who ever stays at home, it's about time that we accepted that 'work' in the household is no less valuable than that in the paid workplace.”

“Missfoodlove

"I would say the woman in question will be forced to attend parenting classes if she wishes to keep her children."

And the rest. Social services will be heavily involved but. luckily, she isn't the norm for parenting in general and cannot be used as an argument to keep schools open - in her case to at least midnight.”

“Flexible working hours would help so many families but so few people are offered true flexibility.
Have people found their employers truly accommodate their needs? So many people (and it does tend to be the women who shoulder the childcare/part-time work while men continue with full-time at the moment - probably because when women return to work after maternity leave and want to still spend time with their children) seem to struggle and feel guilty within their working environment when it comes to childcare requests.”

“The current school holiday entitlement is derived from the historic terms at universities and public schools, and dates from the days before the plebs were forced into compulsory, industrialised, utilitarian 'Edjukashun', to be turned into factory-fodder. So, no-one 'came up' with it, it simply evolved.

MP's stints at Westminster follow a similar pattern.”

“Sadly Lucylyon the bigger picture is Gove and Tory ideology. Privatization of education through the Academies. Businesses will dictate in the future school hours along with highly paid 'principals' and governing bodies with a private agenda. Schools will no longer be about community but profit margins and league tables.”

“"Flexible working hours would help so many families but so few people are offered true flexibility"

Not every job can have flexible hours. Shops and catering establishment, for example, have to be open at fixed times. OK you can work different hours if you are part time but it has to fit in with everyone elses hours. True flexibility is being able to work the hours that suit you and change them on a day to day basis. Impossible if you have a customer facing job and annoying for other workers if you are needed for something and not coming in for another hour.”